Jeff Guinn has established a reputation as one of the great writers of non-fiction Americana. His bestselling books include "Go Down Together: The True Untold Story of Bonnie & Clyde," "Manson: The Life and Times of Charles Manson" and "The Road to Jonestown: Jim Jones and Peoples Temple."
Guinn's latest book is "Waco: David Koresh, the Branch Davidians, and a Legacy of Rage."
He used his experience as a former investigative journalist to write what is probably the definitive account of the 51-day standoff between residents of a religious compound and federal agents that ended in the loss of dozens of lives. The book features never-before-seen documents, photographs and interviews.
Guinn's meticulous research changes the perception of what really happened in Waco, Texas, in 1993.
This interview has been edited for clarity and length.
Doug Gordon: How did David Koresh become the leader of the Branch Davidians?
Jeff Guinn: By all accounts, including surviving Branch Davidians, it was a huge surprise. He came to Mount Carmel as a fairly inarticulate 21-year-old. But he soon paired up with Lois Roden, who was at the time the leader of the Branch Davidians. Lois, who is in her early 60s, thought that the end was coming, that everyone had to prepare, that only her followers really interpreted the Bible correctly. They had to try to send the message.
But she took David Koresh first as her protégé and then as her lover. And gradually he assumed leadership of the Branch Davidians from her. So it was a progression, but it was a shocking progression to most of the other Branch Davidians.
We didn't see much potential in Koresh until Lois Roden presented him as someone who could be a great teacher for them.
DG: In 1986, Koresh announced that God needed him to take an additional wife or many wives. How did his followers react?
JG: Koresh always would mention things like new light, and he would say that what he had prophesied previously now had been replaced because God had given him additional information. He told his followers that based on his readings, his interpretation of the King James Bible — which, by the way, were always assumed to be the only correct interpretation — God meant for him to have more than one wife.
They were stunned. And most particularly stunned was Koresh's 16-year-old wife, Rachel, who adamantly opposed this until she said that God came to her in a dream and said David was right. At first, everyone thought he would take just one more wife.
But then Koresh announced an additional new light that he needed to take wives. Many of them because now he interpreted from the Book of Revelation that the Lamb would spread his seed, have children, and that there would be 24 elders who would help the lamb rule the new Kingdom of God after the end times. Thus, 24 would have to be his children. Therefore, he had to impregnate a lot of women.
DG: One of many discoveries you made while researching your book is that David Koresh plagiarized his End Times prophecies. Can you tell us about that?
JG: This was absolutely stunning to me. It was an absolute revelation. It turns out that David Koresh was not the original Koresh claiming to be the Lamb, the prophet, the one who was going to read the Seven Seals and bring the End Times. That honor belonged to a man from New York named Cyrus Teed who was a physician in upstate New York — and who gained many, many followers, thousands of them, by claiming he'd been raised up to heaven, where he'd been informed he was the spirit reincarnation of King Cyrus from the Old Testament.
And Cyrus in Hebrew is pronounced "Koresh." So Cyrus Teed took the name Koresh and moved his followers to a compound just outside Fort Myers, Florida, in the late 1880s. And proclaimed in his newsletter sent out to the world that he was the Lamb of Revelation. He was going to open the Seven Seals. He was going to do all the things that quite a few years later, David Koresh claimed he was going to do. The original Koresh died in 1908 with his followers expecting him to return to life and bring about all his prophecies. That didn't happen.
DG: The Waco siege started on Feb. 28, 1993, and you were able to talk to more than a dozen former ATF (Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives) agents who were involved. What did you learn from them?
JG: Nobody had ever really gotten into what ATF did that day and why they did it. The agents who participated in the first raid — there were 76 of them. Four would die. Another 20 would be severely wounded that day.
The agents were not told anything about what the Branch Davidians believed, that Koresh was prophesying: Mount Carmel would be attacked by the agent of Babylon, which of course would match, at least to the Branch Davidians' minds, what the ATF was going to do.
They were simply told there was a religious zealot and his sheep, like followers living in this big hovel — that they had a lot of illegal guns that they were probably going to use on innocent citizens if there wasn't an intervention.
And so they staged a raid with absolutely no knowledge that what they were doing would convince Koresh's followers that Koresh's prophesies (were) true. The agents were also promised that the raid would only go forward if they had the element of surprise.
They believed, based on what they'd been told by Branch Davidian defectors, that all the guns at Mount Carmel were locked away and could only be handed out with Koresh's permission if they could get the drop on the Branch Davidians. No one would be armed.
As it turned out, Koresh had already given guns to all his followers. They had them in their rooms in this huge building with 360-degree views of the land around them, and ATF walked into a firetrap.
DG: In the aftermath of the Waco tragedy, some people blamed Koresh and the Branch Davidians, while others blamed the FBI. Who do you believe is more at fault?
JG: There are no heroes in this story. You have three entities — ATF, FBI and the Branch Davidians. None of them chose or even really tried to understand what the others believed, what the others wanted. There was never any clear communication for that.
And because of that, it's happened for 30 years since, that people have simply taken one side or the other, seen plots, seen Satanic forces at work or government conspiracies.
And again, for that reason, Waco, Mount Carmel has really been the launchpad for a lot of violence and anti-government or anti-religion acts since starting with the Oklahoma City bombing two years after the Waco fire. Timothy McVeigh said clearly he did that to get revenge for the innocent people who died at Mount Carmel.
Most of the current leaders in things we would consider to be militant militia or else otherwise conspiracy-minded — from Alex Jones to the founders of Oath Keepers — they all cut their teeth on Waco and the protests there, and their references to it go all the way up to Jan. 6, 2021.
Waco has become an excuse for not only paranoia about the American government, but threats and occasionally violent actions towards the American government.